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Comments - Rookie vs. Apprentice
January 09, 2012
So much talk about Taiwanese frames, and I haven't heard a good explanation of how they do a good job that many US welders would do well to emulate - are they welding by hand? computer controlled? BTW, if I had the money, I would have Tom Kellogg/Jeff Duser, Ira Ryan, Chris Bishop or Ian Sutton (who DID spend his time at Seven) build me a frame right now (particularly since Richard Sachs is effectively out of my league, or I'm out of his, since I'm not an existing customer). But instead, I ride a Taiwanese 853 frame from KHS that is a great ride.
- wade, NYC
December 07, 2009
I do actually know of at least two "high end custom builders" (they call themselves custom and anything over 1500 bucks for a frame I would consider high end) who have had to take back product (high end price tag stuff.) because of shoddy work because of what I would characterize as lack of experience... Alignment was one issue and the other issue was a finish that had corrision on within the month- the builder wanted a raw look.
My point though is why would one conceive of actually selling something for a premium when they have no lineage (history of making product) and have only really made a handful of frames- that does not sound like experience that would warrant top dollar product. Yes, you are right not a lot of people are buying their stuff but I pit those who do.
I
- Fat , NY
December 04, 2009
This is sooo awesome!
- jIM, Troy,NY
December 04, 2009
Chris | fat chance: Who are these newbies who are churning out top dollar frames of dubious quality? Do you know them? Do you see them at NAHBS? Are they polluting the classified of roadbikereview or MTBR with their wares? Does Lou Dobbs know about this?
Better yet, who is the customer for said frames? In DC our per capita hipsters/tweedster ratio is as high as anywhere, I am simply not seeing this epidemic on these streets. Most people who go to UBI build their $2400 4130 CroMo fixie frame and then go home. If they decide to go into business few are going to make it, and there's the added cost of setting up your framebuilding shop. Those who aren't serious are going to sink to the bottom because no one will buy their bicycles and they will burn through their cash. Plus, if they do indeed suck, then they're going to get sued because their bicycles fall apart and people get hurt. It is actually a pretty good system of self-regulation.
Made in USA is not an excuse for poor quality and a higher price, nor did I imply that in my post. No, I don't work for UBI. Yes, I bought a custom steel frame from Carl Strong and I love it.
- Mark, DC
December 03, 2009
Mark from DC- I think you missed the point of the post: he is not knocking those who are trying their hand at the art of frame building, but rather the astronomical figures that they are charging for more often than not so-so at best work. Look at the work (check the beads of the welding and remember that silver brazing allows alot of leeway in terms of covering up technically flawed work) and then look at the prices. I took welding in college for three years and my beads never looked close to the part of the Fat Chance I idolized back in the early to mid 90's....so I am not sure how these newer builders can justify to themselves the top dollar prices that they are charging.
- fat chance , NYC
December 03, 2009
@Mark in DC -- And exactly WHY is it that we no longer manufacture things here? In part because it's a lot cheaper to manufacture some things overseas, but more importantly, you can get the same quality cheaper overseas. So how then do "a few kids who want to get into the bike building business" by building shoddy, poor handling, low-value-but-high-price bicycle in any way address that? | If they were to be building high quality stuff (you know, like Serotta, Sachs, Moots, etc.) then the value is high and justifies the high price. If you want to buy inferior products just because they are trendy or "Made in America", then go right ahead. But it won't fix the issue that the newbie framebuilders you're attempting to defend just happen to flat-out suck at what they do because the never learned it the right way. Which was the whole point of the post...
- Chris, Little Rock
December 03, 2009
I just had to say that I really liked this turn of phrase: "The tyranny of mentorship. That starved march, measured in inches, to experience. "
- Dexter, Madrid
December 02, 2009
What a dickish post. Our economy is f'd, in part, because we no longer manufacture high value goods in the United States. Now you're shitting all over a few kids who want to get into the bike building business, which, perhaps, might allow a perspective buyer the choice between a mass produced frame from China, or one made locally? How does this threaten you? It doesn't. Your post is pure snobbery and hypocritical. $1275 Ambrosio wheelset, anyone?
- Mark, DC
December 02, 2009
I guess I won't see you at the NAHBS in Richmond.
- Lawrence, Halifax (place of residence)
December 01, 2009
Fair enough. Presenting those images as a Photo Of The Year poll was a sidetrack from simply pointing out that, in a few minutes on Flickr, you can find lots of photos that are at least as good as the Photo Of The Year nominees from the world's #1 cycling website. It makes financial sense for the Big Name photographers to take cookie-cutter photos, but it doesn't require a moto driver or even a press pass to make the sport look interesting.
- Josh Kadis, Oakland, CA
December 01, 2009
BQ - bang on post and video about framebuilders and the Portland scene. There's a TON of venom for Rapha in this world. Why? My guess is the indulgent pornographic nature of the brand. Suddenly eating a salami sandwich mid-ride is the most beautiful thing in the world. Obermeyers for training. "Epic" riding. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to look good [I own some Rapha gear] - but when one tries too hard to look like a cyclist or "athletic" off/on the bike, the subtlety of style has lost its charms. In cycling, function should be priority over form any day of the week.
- Seb, Toronto
December 01, 2009
I don't see an unfairly harsh judgment in your presentation, but rather a question. And I think it's great that people are asking aloud; "why is this valuable...". It might get people to re-think what and why they buy. That seems especially relevant right now.
Perception and preference, whether in a fancy lug, a better handling bike, a new bottom bracket standard, or a sense of belonging with a brand, define our day-to-day reality. And once a company or brand has a reputation for something, it often becomes a lasting attribute that can be an asset or a handicap to their growth and evolution. As a brand manager, I am constantly watching to see where people find value, and the differences are both maddening and enlightening.
- eric, soquel
December 01, 2009
Thanks for ruining the arcane nature of my ringtone...I'll still send you some Cervelo fender clamps though. K
- Krys, Dundas
December 01, 2009
I've apprenticed with my dad doing artificial rockwork in China on and off for 4 years. The work is interesting, but my heart is not in it like his is. Not enough. It's not a job to casually keep. I'm obsessed with frame building and have been for years. I think about it all the time. I had the chance to take a class one on one with an amazing builder and it was awesome! How cool is molten brass? It's been two years and I haven't made another frame. No space and no money. Plus, I'm more the apprentice type than "rookie". What has stopped me from contacting every frame builder I could was the feeling that most individual builders seem to want to have only one pair of hands do their work. Reading your post inspired me. If you are a real, professional bicycle frame builder and would like an apprentice I am interested! Please contact me at: frame.apprentice(at)gmail.com. I'm serious. Here are some skills that may interest you: I'm familiar with creative/repetitive manual labor; I'm used to being broke; I don't think a frame is great because the paint and headbadge are nice; I am currently looking to relocate; I'm comfortable doing hard work with very little encouragement or praise. I have no fantasies that I will be the next Sachs, Pegoretti or Serotta, but I'd love to learn the skills and have the experience to build good frames. Framebuilders - expect my email.
- Franz, Chengdu and Honolulu
December 01, 2009
Bicycle Toe Shoe: http://www.wellcultured.com/fashion/533/the-absolute-guide-to-dress-shoes (saving the curious from a google search)
- RB, the 'ham
December 01, 2009
I see you've read Carl Strong's blog:
http://www.strongframes.com/blog/?p=3883
- Ed, Portland (not OR)
December 01, 2009
let's not throw out the baby with the PDX E coli tainted water
- lawrence, halifax (formerly Toronto & Calgary)
November 30, 2009
You've cleverly articulated something I've been bottling up inside for a while now. Bravo for having the balls to call bullshit on Portland. What a fantastic cliché it is!. OOOH, veloshop! OOOH, ace hotel! OOOH, cross crusade! OOOH, wend magazine! OOOH, abcxyz framebuilder selling powdercoated surlys marked up by 300% ! Give me a break. PDX is lame.
- johnny cigs, MPLS
November 30, 2009
"Bicycle Toe" is a style of stitching on a dress shoe. The stitching comes back from the toe, widening slightly as it recedes, as you might expect from a certain style of toe clip.
- Peter, San Jose
November 30, 2009
AccuTerra makes Outdoor GPS Maps for the iPhone 3G and
3GS. They make downloads for the iPhone that are topographical/GPS. “AccuTerra provides geologically accurate maps with relief data and other details that Google Maps doesn't provide.” -VentureBeat
- Paul, Winder, GA
November 30, 2009
Certainly some valid points--that are far out-weighed by the cluelessness of what a good customer maker can do --yes, even a younger, quick learner. I'd much rather worship at the alter of the welder than some factory in China with a bunch of 8 year olds on the assembly line that make 99.7% of US bikes --thats not a made up percentage, thats the real number.
And as to the prices of a custom frame, which seems to be a sticking point, this site sells a $650 bike light. Yes, a $650 bike light: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-accessories/2010-nite-rider-pro-1200-led-light-6339.46.1.html But with that $2.75 of plastic, glass and wires it's surely worth that and more.
- Marek, Somerville, MA.
November 30, 2009
Wow. A t-shirt for $45 that's LONG IN THE BACK and says RAPHA in giant letters on the front? Do they make a version with the logo in BIG SPARKLY SEQUINS? I'm sorry but this brand is starting to jump the shark for me and is heading over the pool from aspiration to ostentation.
- Marc, Providence RI
November 30, 2009
Love my Rapha stuff - great quality,style and fit. Why on earth would it bother you if someone else actually gets enjoyment out of something - for whatever reason?
- Jim, Toronto
November 30, 2009
Is Rapha the new Garmin? Why is there a comment on here every week about the pricing of Rapha and the though process of the people who wear it? I wear the stuff, and it's incredible; better that you thought a cyclnig jersey could be. My rational was that while I won't ride $2,000 wheels every day, I'll wear the jersey every ride for years and won't look ridiculous in it at the cafe.
Agree on the bikes. That Bella Ciao looks beautiful and love that it's speced with a Brooks.
- Adam, hamilton
November 30, 2009
Can we have a quick reality check here: Competitive Cyclist is a company that sells, by and large, mass produced products popped out of carbon molds and textile shops in the far east, right? I'm not going to argue that the work of a young framebuilder who is all style and no craft or experience is superior to this-- the idea that anyone can jump into being a framebuilder is ridiculous, the stuff of trust-fund tart fantasies, to be sure. But the rationale needed to swallow the marketing hype and markups attached to some of the products proudly featured on this web site is no less grounded in fantasy. While I agree that the whole handmade bike thing could use a nice big reality check, it's unbecoming of a purveyor of fine mass-produced bikes and bike stuff to be issuing this knock-down.
- J, Brooklyn, NY
November 30, 2009
Grayson's comments below are bang on. There is art in anything that is fabricated by hand, weather it works or not may not be important to some people but there is also art in the perfect weld made in Taiwan. Imperfection is art, look at the beauty of anything ever created, the art lies in the imperfections. Nothing in nature is perfect which is why it is so impervious to our need to make it perfect. And Rapha is great for the ostentatious, self indulging, narcissist who thinks that by spending enough money they can some how capture some of the sedition that makes biking, biking.
- N, Waterloo
November 30, 2009
Photo of the year is here http://hetmalen.blogspot.com/2009/11/everyone-has-their-draw-to-road-cycling.html, Johnny f'ng Hoogerland at the Vuelta, not sure who took I got it from AP if I remember right. You're a better tongue biter than I, my diatribe on current crop of framebuilders would be more like the scene from 'Half Baked', "F#$k Youuu, F#$k Youuu, You're Cool, F#$k Youuu..."
- J$, Austin
November 30, 2009
What's to think Is the difference between The tortured artist or the union Joe From the market I live in To the world I see Whatever we reap we're lucky if we sow All work is honorable Yet art is just a job Let me spend my paycheck on a beer No heroes, no leaders, no artists, no gods I'm a worker, you're a worker Wouldn't you like to be a worker too?
- Born Toulouse Lautrec, New Bomb Turks
November 30, 2009
Kadis is a self-absorbed wanker.
- ABC, 123
November 30, 2009
I am right with you about the frame builders- I don't understand how these guys/gals can price their frames out at the level as a well established GOOD builder. Their are a few people out there who look the part but their work is terrible when actually ridden- I know of two framebuilders personally who had to take back a couple of frames because they just did not work. If you are going to charge top dollart, then provide top dollar product.
- Frenchy, NYC
November 30, 2009
Don't worry, there are plenty inked-up indie nerds that also have no ambition to make or buy hand made "art" bikes too. We like and buy brands like S-works, Edge, Force and Ultegra, from our local B&M or online. We also like Carbon Fiber wheels, not just Deep-V's. Hell, just because its made in Taiwan doesn't mean it isn't art.
However, I still can't justify buying anything Rapha at retail cost.
- grayson, pleasant hill
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