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Assos T.cento_s7 Bib Shorts - Men's

$328.95

Item # AAS000C

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Item # AAS000C

Six years in the making.

Assos' engineers worked with their Werksmannschaft factory team riders over the past six years to develop the all-new T.cento_s7 Bib Shorts. These stand as a testament to the Swiss brand's dedication to fit and function perfection, as they are the next generation of the proven FI.Mille. There are four new "mission-specific" models of bib shorts within Assos' technical-feature-laden _s7 lineup, with the T.cento _s7 aligning itself as the long distance, comfort-oriented option. The next level of Assos bib short innovation has officially arrived.

The main Assos-specific textile that makes up the paneling of the T.cento_s7 bib shorts is called Type.439. This fabric is used for the panels of the T.cento_s7, as it's incredibly comfortable and supportive. The material provides exceptional breathability, and it rapidly transfers moisture to its quick-drying outer surface. Additionally, this smooth fabric provides a moderately compressive hold, which, in turn, supports the muscle groups of the legs. As a result, these muscles are partially shielded from the fatigue-inducing effects of muscle oscillation that are derivative of road vibration. Countless prototypes tested by Assos' very own Werksmannschaft (the Assos factory team) riders proved to Assos engineers that this exclusive textile provides the ideal blend of compressive support and low weight. And like the other fabrics composing the rest of the _s7 bib shorts line, Type.439 was finished with an iceColor application, which is similar to Coldblack cooling technology in that it effectively reduces surface temperature in dark fabrics.

Assos engineered these bib shorts to provide a slightly asymmetrical compressive hold that stretches more around your body, rather than vertically. This tuned stretch works to firmly secure the shorts in place while down in the cycling position, feeling more dialed while sitting in the saddle than while standing upright. This feeling has long been known to Assos' devoted followers as the signature "click on" fit. This Advanced Ergonomic Pattern Design (AEPD) fit is ever-present with the _s7 line, and it's been further enhanced by its new Y7 bib strap design. While the _s5's straps were spot-on from a comfort perspective, this latest generation's straps have been moved outward in the front slightly for better support. For example, while positioned over the hoods or down in the drops, traditional bib straps generally create a gap away from the torso between the collarbone and upper hips. But by aligning the straps outward, more along the obliques, the straps hug the torso, mimicking the body's movements without any gap, regardless of on-the-bike positioning.

Now for the heart of the T.cento's technological dominance: the chamois. While we're always reluctant to use the phrase "game changer" in anything we describe, the research and development of the chamois might just warrant an exception. Assos is calling it the "kuKuPenthouse." Yes, that is the name, and we'll get to its meaning momentarily. But first, as with all of the _s7 collection, it wears the new amethyst color. According to Assos, this purple hue was chosen to pay homage to the clothing of Roman emperors, English monarchs, and members of Japanese aristocracy, as the historically-significant color highlights what it calls the "most technically advanced cycling shorts on Earth."

As the top-tier chamois within the _s7 line, the kuKuPenthouse received every one of the new technical innovations to emerge from Assos' extensive product testing. The engineers began with a 10mm-thick memoryFoam material. This was first introduced with the venerable _s2 FI.13, as its shock absorbing composition returns to its original position, "filling the gap," every time pedaling position is changed in the saddle through the shift of weight. The memoryFoam features multiple layers, with its superAir and waffle composition making up the first two. This perforated design works to increase breathability and to shed weight. Additionally, this dimpling, combined with the ultra-soft microfiber top sheet, effectively pulls moisture from within the layers below, which allows it to dry much quicker than the previous _s5 chamois. Once Assos got the chamois layup to their standards, the engineers began rethinking the way a traditional chamois is attached to the shorts. This led them to what they are calling the "goldenGate," which involves interrupting the stitching along both of the chamois' side panels, allowing a more "three-dimensional" freedom of movement in this sensitive, rotational area. Additionally, because the seams are eliminated, friction is minimized even further. But if that weren't enough, Assos went ahead and bonded its lightly-padded anatomical side flaps over this short-to-chamois junction, making the transition against your skin as smooth as possible.

And while the aforementioned is impressive, the true magic of this chamois is located at the front, as Assos removed the section of padding where a male cyclist's genitals would normally contact the chamois. In place of the padding is a soft, brushed microfiber layer, which creates a "nest," or cradle into which the genitals are comfortably supported, free of the chamois' foam padding. This is where the kuKuPenthouse name is derived, which is truly a first in chamois construction. Pressure is thus eliminated in this area, and ventilation is increased substantially compared to a traditional chamois. The overall chamois design was then finished off with a "rearTerminal" at the back — where the chamois' rear portion meets the lower back fabric panel — by fitting a smooth layer of durable and wicking microfiber in this high-stress moisture collection zone.

The Assos T.cento_s7 comes in a claimed weight of 185g. The leg panels were finished off with new low-volume, calibrated-stretch superFlat grippers to keep the cuffs securely in place, and small Assos logos accent the shorts throughout. They are available in seven sizes from X-Small to TIR and in the color Black Volkanga.

Tech Specs

Claimed Weight:
Black Volkanga, M: 185g
Removable Chamois:
no
Leg Gripper:
superFlat silicone
Chamois:
yes, kuKuPenthouse
Material:
[paneling] Type.439 (73% polyamide/nylon, 17% Elastane, 10% polyester)
Fit:
comfort/support
Recommended Use:
long distance cycling
Manufacturer Warranty:
limited
Bib:
yes, Y7 frame carrier bibTech
Chamois Thickness:
10 mm

Size chart

Assos

Men's Apparel
Shorts
 XSSMLXLXLGTIR
Leg & Knee Warmers 0 I II
Height 4ft 11in - 5ft 2in
(150 - 159cm)
5ft 3in - 5ft 6in
(160 - 169cm)
5ft 7in - 5ft 10in
(170 - 179cm)
5ft 11in - 6ft 1in
(180 - 185cm)
6ft 1in - 6ft 3in
(186 - 190cm)
6ft 3in - 6ft 5in+
(191 - 195cm+)
XLG but wider
Tops
 XSSMLXLXLGTIR
Arm Warmers 0 I II
Chest 35.4in
(90cm)
37.8in
(96cm)
39.4in
(100cm)
40.2in
(102cm)
43.3in
(110cm)
45.7in
(116cm)
46.5+ in
(118cm)
How to Measure:
For best results, take measurements over your underwear.
Chest:
Measure around the widest part of your chest.

Reviews & Community

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Assos T.cento_s7 Bib Shorts - Men's

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Here's what others have to say...

5 5

Great Bib Shorts

  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

Very comfortable on long rides and look great!

5 5

Incredible!

  • Gender: Male
  • Familiarity: I've used it once or twice and have initial impressions

I purchased the bibs for a 115 mile ride. I was on the bike for about 7.5 hours. I was totally amazed how comfortable these bibs were. The penthouse was great. I had no irritability. I wish they were cheaper; but in the end, I will be saving up to buy another pair. I am 5'9 and about 180lbs. I purchased a large size; fit a little snug but still very comfortable.

2 5

Try them. I'm keeping mine, but....

  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

I got some irritation after a 2 hr ride. With Assos Creme. Switched back to the old S5 FI Milles, no problem.

Toni Maier is no longer with the company. Almost none of Assos' clothing is still made in Switzerland. I'm not saying this means the company is going downhill, but when a genius cashes in, sometimes the successors keep the brand up, sometimes they don't.

I've been riding a long time. Which is to say, my "habits" have changed. When I was young, I rode a lot out of the saddle. Uncomfy saddle, no shorts padding, no problem. Middle age, easily stood up when the perineum started protesting. Now, I want to be able to be comfy sitting.
The S5's (and S2's in my experience) work for older guys. Cento S7 may be "a bridge too far".

What has been great about Assos is, compared to other companies, is, they don't put out new products every 1-2 years, just to be "current". They design things, and if they "work", they keep them for longer periods.

Are they omniscient? I dunno. I have a lot of Assos products with zippers. None of them has a YKK zipper. It's true. Check your Assos jackets, jerseys and bib tights.

I haven't seen Gore wind/water material on Assos' products. Kinda weird. Gore partnered with Assos in designing its Gore Ozon first-gen Ozon long distance shorts, with an Assos/Cytech pad, #1 among RAAM riders.

I have Sidi shoes, made in Italy, not the outsourced versions, with Gore-Tex liners. I have a Casteilli long-sleeve jersey with Gore WindStopper.
Assos isn't partnering with Gore for its winter wind-and-water-beating gear, because...

If anybody says the new Cento S7 is better than the old FI Mille S5, they need to do a century in both, and then report back.

BTW, I am working against my own interests, but Assos is selling FI Mille S5's. Maybe CC could get some, and in the process, get Assos to keep making them.

Responded on

Don't know how I did 2 stars. These are 3.5 stars. Not as ultra comfy for 1500 mi/month use as S5's, maybe as comfy as old Gore Ozon I's, but twice the price. I ride mine a time or two week, and FI. Mille S5's four to five times a week. I just have to stand up a little more to relieve pressure discomfort with the S7's.

Assos is really good about not changing models every year or two just to be fashionable: they design and build things that work well, and you can't always innovate something truly better quickly.

If they think that after 5 years, they truly improved upon S5, and CC and its buyers think likewise, who am I to argue? It's just, for me, S5's are are more comfy the heavy-sitter.

5 5

I wash them daily, so I can use them!

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

After having ridden the best of the best from nearly every manufacturer out there, I didn't expect to have such intense affection for these bibs.

The first point of interest to me were the bib straps, which with their width and fabric are the perfect width and texture to make it feel almost as if you're not wearing anything above your waist.

The level of compression of the fabric of the shorts is perfect; a touch tighter than the average bear, but not as constricting as a "compression" designed short; you could not ask anything more of the fit and finish of these bibs!

As for the chamois, the thickness and density is just perfect to notice that you have significantly improving your saddle comfort, but not so much as to feel like a diaper.

If I could describe a bib short as perfect, these would check every box.

Responded on

What are your measurements and what size do you have?

Responded on

I am 5'10", 31" waist and about 150lbs at most. I wear Mediums in these as well as every other brand of clothing I have worn for the last 10 years. The fit is very similar to Castelli and Louis Garneau as far as sizing goes.

Responded on

I just get some scrotum rub that's not comfy. The old S5 pads are less irritating. But I sit on my butt a lot. If people judge I'm an old fat ass, that's exactly true. But here's the thing, or two: there are lots of shorts that work fine for people who get out of the saddle a lot. When I rode an Italian bike in 1962, with Tulio supervising the production line 2 x 5 Record, and I was 4'9' and weighed 110#, I didn't need any padding.
Not even when I was still on the same bike, 5'9", 135#.

But I got older. A lot of people have gotten older. I don't think Assos is making a hit with 20-35 y/o Pro Tour team riders, or at least not their sponsors. My read is that when you are young, and hard, you are out of the saddle a lot: pad doesn't apply. When you define riding as tunnel vision, because your brain doesn't supply your lateral retina with blood and oxygen, you don't need a good pad. I've been there.

At the price Assos is charging, I have to believe they are targeting older, more affluent riders. For my money--and I have no sponsor--I think they hit the spot with the S2 and S5, and overshot with the S7. But if they can get Team Sky to buy the Cento S7 for training rides and Paris-Roubaix, then I'll admit I'm wrong.

5 5

Update after 18 months...

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

I've ridden in these several times per week for a year and a half ( bought a pair on release). I've become intimate with them. Here is my update.

By the way, Mike Nelson's review of the T.Cento's below is one of the best reviews on this site. You should definitely read it.

For me, the T.Cento's have become the favorite 'distance' bibshort in my rotation. The "KuKu Penthouse" is the main reason probably, but these bibshorts are great for a number of interconnected reasons.

Quality/durability after 18 months: Very impressive. The fabric used in the leg panels is very strong and of very high quality. No thinning of the material, no stretching or sagging, really no wear (at all). Impressive. All seams have remained perfectly intact (after 18 months of heavy use). The stitching has been perfect. The shoulder-straps are still elastic and strong. And the thick chamois pad is still functionally perfect, though the purple color on the top of the chamois pad (inside the shorts) has faded a bit (who cares). The fabrics and textiles used are of -very- high quality. This is self-evident everywhere you look.

The Kuku Penthouse: incredible name but it works. Tuck your package in and go ride! You can basically forget about any pinching or adjustments or discomfort for the whole ride. It's quite a revelation.

Other PROS: The shoulder-straps mold to your shoulders, lay perfectly flat, and don't fold over. The leg grippers work perfectly. The chamois pad is thick (and ventilated) for long hours in the saddle. The shorts are cut short in the front/ab area for ventilation during hard/warm weather riding (also a benefit during the occasional front pit stop). Both shoulder-straps feature a loop for your sunglasses during steep climbing; a nice detail that I use frequently.

CONS: Not many except the price. The cost is pretty steep.

Tweak needed, in my opinion: The chamois pad is 10 mm thick everywhere. That is great under the sit bones (esp for high mileage use). But the pad is not progressively variable (thinner) under the perineum. This slightly compresses the perinium and interferes with the "channel relief" function of my saddle (a Selle Italia SLR Flow). Maybe this is an issue of pad/saddle interface. Anyway, this is not a factor with the other Assos models (e.g., Equipe, Campionissimo); they use a thinner chamois. It's not a deal breaker yet I hope Assos will refine this in future updates.

FIT: True to size. I am 5'9" and 185. The L fits me perfectly; both in the leg and the shoulder straps. If you are 10-15 lbs lighter, the medium will fit better.

Responded on

Hi John,
I'm glad you liked my review! If you ever want to chat about cycling clothing or gear, I'm available at extension 4076 every weekday.

5 5

Unbelievable Bib

  • Gender: Male
  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

Worn Bibs on at least 25 rides and they are awesome. My other 5 pairs of bids (Santini, Capo, Descente...) have been sitting in the closet since and will probably never be worn again. Doesn't feel like you are wearing anything once in riding position. KuKuPenthouse is all that it's claimed to be. Have not had any of the numbness I used to get since I started wearing them. All male parts are totally comfortable on or off the bike as a result of design. The padding is ecxellent and all claims by Assos are substantiated. Most comfortable Bibs I've ever worn. Worth every penny!

Hi, I have S5 Mille in medium, UNO S5 large and S7 equipe in large, the mille is a little bit more relax so I'd like to know if the cento is the same?? Do I need large or medium?
thanks

Responded on

Hi, The T.Cento_S7 bibs will fit more like your S5 Mille bibs.

5 5

Overcome Nature

  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

As cyclists, one of the biggest challenges we face as our commitment to the sport increases is finding ways to stay comfortable and pain-free in the saddle on longer rides. I talk every day with people who are trying all kinds of shorts and saddles to address the problems they are having after hours in the saddle. I have thought during these conversations that the bicycles might be a technology we enjoy, but cycling is not an inherently natural activity. Nothing in the last couple of million years of human evolution has prepared our bodies to sit on a firm triangular saddle for several hours.
It is a problem of nature, but the solution is in technology. The Assos T.cento_s7 bib shorts are more than just clothing, they are an artifact of cycling technology, as much as a set of carbon wheels, an aero frame, or a power meter. They are the distance-oriented short in the latest generation of Assos products (which all carry the S7 designation)
Clearly Assos looked at every aspect of their previous model, excellent in its own right, and found ways to make improvements. The bib straps sit flat and close to the body and simply refuse to wrinkle or fold on themselves, so there is never spaghetti-strap effect. The textiles throughout the shorts are thin and breathable, but somehow still have a sturdy quality. I expect these to last a long time.
The chamois is big and thick, more so than any other bib shorts I own. This is especially noticeable off the bike, but these weren’t made to be good off the bike. In the saddle, I have not felt the padding go flat underneath me, nor have I felt the edge of the chamois. The KuKu Penthouse feature is unlike any of my other shorts. Under the sit bones it feels firm and substantially padded, but in the front, where the chamois would usually push back against the anatomy, it is soft and unobtrusive, almost like a knit boxer short. This takes some getting used to, but after the miles start to stack up, the shorts just disappear.
Since getting the T.cento_s7 bib shorts a few weeks ago, I have done a couple of short rides, a mountainous 40-mile ride, and a flat 60-mile ride. Used with Assos Chamois cream, Ss.milleJersey_evo7 Jersey, and the NS.skinFoil Base Layer, they will be a top pick for long and strenuous rides.

Avg. ride time: 34m per week
  • Average ride time is based on Strava activity over the last 3 months. Give your reviews credibility by connecting your account.
5 5

Great Fit and Comfort

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

I have several pairs of Assos bibs from a few different series and have loved nearly all of them. Assos is a brand that develops to perfection and the Cento is no exception.

I currently have two pairs of S7 Equipes that are on regular rotation so I decided to add the Centos in for longer days in the saddle. I have not been disappointing. While they aren't as compressive as the Equipes, they provide tons of support and are great for those longer days. The extra 2mm in the chamois compared to the Equipe is welcomed after around hour 3 in the saddle. Add that to the Kuku Pentouse and the Golden Gate chamois sticking and you lose track of the shorts underneath you. It allows you to focus on the ride and not on the pain hours in the saddle typically provides.

I would recommend these bibs to anyone looking to spend over 3 hours on the bike. Sizing is pretty typical of any Assos bib, while being a bit more generous in the cut with less compression.

Avg. ride time: 9h 55m per week
  • Average ride time is based on Strava activity over the last 3 months. Give your reviews credibility by connecting your account.
5 5

Worth the extra money

  • Gender: Male
  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

They are expensive, but don't seem overpriced at all now that I've worn them on a few long rides.

The term kuku penthouse is just ridiculous, but after several long days in the saddle wearing these, I'm giving the penthouse double shakas. Totally works.

The thick pad of the Centos is great for long rides. I'll be picking up a pair of neopro for the shorter weekday rides.

2 5

durability?

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

I probably have less than 400 miles on these bibs. Already have worn through one side of inner thigh. No crashes, snagging, or anything else obvious. Could blame it on my leg girth, saddle position, etc... Maybe, but why don't any of my Gore Hincappie or cheap euro team bibs do the same, when they have 1000's of miles on them? BTW, hand wash them too.

4 5

Didn't like styling around the front

  • Familiarity: I returned this product before using it

Judging from what others are saying, this is probably a great pair of bibs, but I just didn't like the styling around the front groin area. I guess Assos did this on purpose and maybe it is really comfortable, but at this price I kind of felt like everything had to be perfect.

Avg. ride time: 34m per week
  • Average ride time is based on Strava activity over the last 3 months. Give your reviews credibility by connecting your account.
4 5

A must for the epic rides!

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

Rider info:
Height-5'9"
Weight-160#
Waist-32"
Chest-39"
Cycling genre-longer distance road and mountain bike rider

The Assos T.cento_s7 bibs are the quintessential bib for the endurance or epic rider regardless of road or mountain.

While I'm not a elite athlete by any stretch of the imagination, I do like to push myself on longer rides and get the max elevation gain or distance that I can. Having a chance to use the top tier products from the best companies, it is a bold statement to say Assos is the best of them all.

The 10mm chamois(when used with the Assos chamois cream) makes any long distance effort in the saddle tolerable. Metric centuries seem like a walk in the park. 5+ hour rides in the mountains may burn out the quads, but the rear end is sitting on clouds. The quality of the product is second to none. Even the unwrapping of the box which contains the bibs is an experience every one should have at least once in their lives.

The urban myths are true. If you a longer distance rider, get the best your hard earned dollar can get. This is truly a bib for the discriminating rider.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me direct at jcrocker@backcountry.com.

Responded on

Hi Jaren, what size did you get? I'm 5'9" but weigh 173lbs with 33" waist. Any idea what size I'll be? I've been using L for my other Assos bibs but I'm thinking of sizing down.

Responded on

I'm 5'9" 168 lbs. 33" waist. I bought a pair in size M, rode them today for the first time, and they fit great. They feel tight around the legs when I first put them on. During the ride they were super comfortable and I love the pad. I'm going to buy a second pair.

Responded on

Hi Mike. I'm 5'9" and 175-180. The size L has fit me perfectly.

How does the length of these compare to the old Fi.Mille_s5 longLeg? One of the things I loved about those was the longer length.

Responded on

Very similar. I own a pair in size L (I'm 5'10"). They completely cover my quadriceps. They extend down to within 2" of the top of my patella when standing (within about 4" when properly positioned on my road bike). T.Cento_s7's do not run short. They are of normal/typical length (the same as bib shorts from Castelli, Capo, etc.)

5 5

Worth the extra cash!

  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

Been looking for a pair of bibs I didn't have to continually adjust during my long rides....Found Them! Tried all kinds of bibs and couldn't find one that worked. These do the trick! Chamois is perfect. Never even noticed I had them on. Wear the same size as all my other Assos bibs. Going to get a back up pair soon!

5 5

Love at first ride, but wait for it...

  • Gender: Male
  • Familiarity: I've used it once or twice and have initial impressions

to see if they last. If they do I will be sold for good. Started training for 70.3 and IM and I have had all kinds of discomfort staying down in the aero position. I tried a new saddle and it helped, but adding these shorts to the equation it has made the remaining discomfort a non-issue. I was able to ride my longest ride of the last 2 years today and stayed comfortable down in the aero position for more than 95% of the ride.

Avg. ride time: 7h 39m per week
  • Average ride time is based on Strava activity over the last 3 months. Give your reviews credibility by connecting your account.
4 5

Conflicting feelings

  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

This was my first Assos purchase, and I have some mixed feelings. They're quite expensive, of course, which made me reluctant.

The other negative is the care of "handwash with our detergent". I especially didn't like not knowing that until they artived. Saying nothing of the legitimacy of that care, that's enough of a pain to make me reluctant to actually wear them.

But... You put them on, get on the bike, and you forget they're there. They're that comfortable. I've actually only worn them a few times, and only for long rides (shortest was 70ish miles). No complaints about performance.

I don't know if I'd buy a second pair, but they do ride nice.

Update: Right after finishing writing that, I noticed that the price had dropped by $40. Two days later, there was a special for a free Uno_s7 jersey with the bibs, and I bought a second pair. And yes, I'm laughing at myself for that.

Responded on

I always machine wash my Assos bibs with no problems.

Responded on

Ditto. I always machine wash (HE-front load) my Assos bibs with no problems. Hang/drip dry. I recommend a natural laundry detergent (clear, no dye); like 7th Generation.

1 5

Poor fit

Purchase large, don't fit. Purchase extra large still don't fit. xxx large too tight. All other bib shorts from other manufacture fit me as large. Assos need to be up front and clear that their shorts are not made for normal size American cyclist. It's really nonsense. I just want a set of bibs that have great padding. Don't care about over expensive fabric!

3 5

not what they used to be

  • Gender: Male
  • Familiarity: I've used it several times

I have a pair of the older F.I.13 S5, and I love them. The new S7 is not the old S5. The S7 has a bulky and wide pad that is simply too much. The pad comes so far forward that the front of my upper thighs are chaffed after only 50 miles. The leg bands are large too, and not as comfortable as the older model. The quality seems the same. Overall, I think Assos needs to focus on what works and stop wasting money on incomprehensible marketing. These bibs are not worth the money given the design mistakes.

Responded on

Not worth the cost.... so I guess that their "incomprehensible marketing" worked!
The extra thick chamois seemed like a good idea but it is so thick that it rubs inside of thighs when sitting on saddle... this may ease with time and use but, more likely I will be retiring my pair early! The KuKuPalace, though, seems to be an improvement. It's a little disconcerting at first but is comfy, ending a problem that I experience with chafing and other chamoise folding, annoying and painfully grabbing hair and pinching tender bits..... so they are good, not great.

Avg. ride time: 44m per week
  • Average ride time is based on Strava activity over the last 3 months. Give your reviews credibility by connecting your account.
5 5

I hate to justify 368 dollars....

  • Familiarity: I've put it through the wringer

BUT.... Out of all the bibs I have bought, used, questioned, etc, these work for me... I'm not a Garmin/Sharp rider or a BMC groupie... I'm fat, i just started riding and logged 3500 miles my first year.. my first double century was in these and they absolutely rocked.... no chafing, no complaints.... Again, i hate to say that a 350+ bib did it because i don't think i will ever be able to justify another pair of these to the Mrs.(even if they cured cancer and i had the type), but that being said, long mileage, they work; humid conditions (and i'm from Florida so i know humid) the Kuku penthouse works, these are the best fu@*ing bibs i own and i tried everything from LG to Castelli and i own several iterations of Assos.... Gotta try them if you're looking for luxury and can justify the price... (Archer's Oscelot Babou is probably still not included...;)